Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

read this:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091011/D9B8SUPO0.html


"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Ar was never designed to be a heavy machine gun.

Is the AR perfect? NO. Is it behind the times? Probably

It is quite possibly the most versatile sporting rifle ever sold.

Is the SAW a full on POS? Yes.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

PS> Very sad story, but small arms cannot compensate for bad location.

They did not have the high ground.
They were blind on several sides.

They should have never been in that base based on location and placement alone.

They should have never been trying to hold a base in an area they were afraid to go into without adequate troop numbers.

Their CO's should be the ones being held accountable. Blaming the weapons is a scapegoat IMHO.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I have got to disagree with you on this one tech.

The m249 saw is a great weapon in the right hands. I as well as many friends of mine have used them to great effect in Iraq and Afghanistan. The barrels need to be changed out just the same as any weapon. It has a very high cyclical rate and overheats quicker than a pkm. Even a browning m2 overheats and it's cyclical rate is lower than an m249. But it has stood the test of time and newer versions of it are even better and less fickle.

I would like to see the adoption of better weapons but I would have to say that the current weapons in use are great, especially the m-240. I think the adoption of an AK variant would be great also but for now they are great.

Oh yeah the m-9 Berretta is a piece of garbage. We need a 1911 style .45

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

:36_1_32v::36_1_32v:

I will absolutely take that as the word from someone who has been there done that.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

When things get desperate, people tend to go cyclic. 12 magazines in about 30 minutes = about 11 shots per minute (28rds per mag) which does not seem excessive and does not exceed the max sustained rate of fire. One thing to note, many soldiers are skimping on lubrication due to it being a dust magnet on their weapons. This could have been (speculation at this point) a key factor in some of the failures. The SAW is a good weapon but many of them are worn out after years of hard use.

The new (old) piston designs will help reduce some of the heat induced/fowling problems that the direct impingement system has but a barrel is a barrel and all of them will over heat at about the same rate. Bx3

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Try this with your AR:
Several drums were fired through this AK to start the fire, then 300 more rounds were put through it!

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Wow, this thread is the embodiment of why I maintain the old paradigm of buying a high dollar AR instead of a high dollar AK is flawed. The AR does not deliver more value than the AK. For all of the AR's vaunted accuracy the M-14 was brought out of retirement to serve as a DMR. It is generally more suitable.

The funny thing is the Russians have had all this figured out for a long time. They have their AK as their primary weapon, the RPK as their (true) SAW and the Dragunov in a heavier caliber than those two as a DMR. The PKM is their GPMG and shares ammo with the Dragunov. There are a few things the Russians excel at and small arms design is one of them.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I said this in 1985-86 when they made the change.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I suspect that in the not-too-distant future we will find that they've been quietly building much better tactical fighter aircraft than we are today, too...

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

WOW, the solder in that article shot 12 mags in 30 minutes and rifle failed. The AK went trough 330 rounds= 11 mags in 1 minute.... with out a hick up.
wow, just wow.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

That video is about the single best marketing piece for an AK that I can imagine.

If reliability is your thing, that pretty much makes the case. WOW.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

They should have never been in Afghanistan to begin with.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Jesus the AK is a beast! Thanks for posting that.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Wonder if they were running them wet. If Afghan sand is as bad as Iraqi sand...anyway, seems a poor command decision.
I also wonder how tired and worn their equipment is...Son-in-law survived Fallujah. Sez his M-4 ran fine...with no lube. He did want something bigger.

And for detractors, SHTF urban or suburban sniping, where minute-of-eyeball precision is needed, the scoped AR-15 is the ticket.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

No disagreement there whatsoever.

I was referring primarily to a failure of military leadership in theater. Regardless of whether or not they should be there at all, it is piss poor strategy to setup a base in such a location.

The CO's should be doing all they can to keep these boys alive. They obviously are not.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

PAK-FA isn't even prototyped yet, let alone operational. It's where the F-22 was in 1990. Since the Cold War, the Russian Fighter Industry has just been content to churn out Flanker variants that look nice in airshows without missiles, fuel or bombs on board and occasionally talk up a new gamechanging aircraft that turns out to be vapourware.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Well my AR isn't fully automatic so it would take a bit to overheat it. Regardless, after 12 magazines on rapid fire, yeah I could toast marshmallows without a fire.

As a guess I would speculate that the problem with the M4 is that its smaller. It absorbs the same amount of energy a full sized AR would generate when shooting ammo so it gets preportionally hotter.

Anyone have one of those AR pistols? I'd like to hear if the pistol version ARs have overheating problems.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Oh, I wasn't arguing with you, just stating an obvious.

If the COs gave a damn, they'd be telling the politicians in the District of Corruption the way it is, and tendering resignations when the policies didn't change. Or better.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

It is my hope that McCrystal will do so when it becomes apparent that Obamma is intent on directing this war from the oval office himself.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

60 minutes is running a story on the war right now. Marines are not happy about the restraint they are having to show while being shot at and having the people run away into the population.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Beat me to it. Watching now....

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Go try this with your AK
:565:

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Okay. Give me a Vepr .223.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

That is impressive and Noveske makes a great product but where I live, in a riot/looting/disaster situation, I'm never going to need to make a 535 yard shot. There just simply isn't the clear space for it. My AK will serve just fine for me.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I'm fairly certain Hive was referring to the 3D thrust vector control MiG-35 aka as the MiG OVT. The F-22 with it's tandem, non-differentially operating 2D TVC is 25 y.o. technology, if you look into the development history of the F-22 you will see this - the 'current' 2D tandem operating TVC on the F-22 was conceptualized in 1984. The Russians introduced differentially operating 2D TVC in 1996, and actually had retrofitted a MiG-29 with differentially operating 3D TVC 2-3 years before the tandem operating 2D TVC F-22 even became operational. The PAK-FA will have differentially operating 3D TVC, and the Russians are retro-fitting their existing fleet of Su-34s fighter/bombers with differentially operating 3D TVC. Only the Russians have operational fighters and fighter/bombers with differentially operating 3D TVC, so it's actually the USG/MIC which cannot keep pace with the Russians, being about 25 years behind. lol

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Didn't Obama stop buying F-22's because he'd rather fund employment for industries (auto) in which more people voted for him? I believe not buying these planes is a mistake that will come back to haunt us.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

That is extremely impressive from a reliability standpoint. You can't argue with that video (at 30yds). I would love to see a follow up video of what that same rifle will now shoot at 100yds and 300yds though.

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Not giving the MIC a blank check is a mistake???

FWIW, Russian planes don't require 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of operation like the F-22 does.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I am almost to the point of who really cares about jet fighter craft any more? Not that I don't like jet fighters... the Falcon was one of the most beautiful fighters ever made.

I can build 100 reapers for what 1 F22 costs. Sure, you can shoot down 1 or 10... but I can still get you.

Once the target is acquired, it is all about how good the missile is... the airframe is besides the point.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Nobody is doubting the superior accuracy of the AR over the AK ... on a one way range.

Its the 2 way range where things get complicated, especially when you are tired, dusty and dirty.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

FWIW Russian aerospace products are not on the same level as the US. Two schools of thought: The Russian one is big, powerful and simple. The USA's is high-tech, accurate and ergonomic. Neither approach is necessarily wrong or better. They are just two ways of approaching the same problem. Generally the amount of funding available determines which approach is taken.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

And of course the MIC has an unlimited budget, so they use every last cent available to them.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I have to say I am liking my AR pretty good this evening. My 10 year old daughter just killed her first deer this evening with my AR-15 in 6.8mm at about 70 yards. Good clean kill in the shoulder and out the rear flank about 3/4's length wise through the deer with a decent exit wound. Now we did not have to shoot 120 rounds in 60 seconds to kill the deer. One shot-One kill. I have owned and loaded for AR-15's for 20+ years and have not had one jam, but again, I have not torture tested my guns. I have also owned several AK's and none of them have ever jammed either, but I got rid of the AK's because I could not hit a deer where I needed to at 70+ yards. So I guess if you are rolling around in mud or sand and you need to put massive amounts of copper and lead in the air in a short amount of time without the need for average accuracy, then the AK is your gun. However, if you think of the AR-15 as a bolt gun in which you do not need to work the bolt that can deliver steady fire and ON target (1 MOA minimum) then I will take the AR-15. Both are fine weapons, both have strengths and short commings.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

And as pointed out in the OP, the shortcoming of the AR-15/M-16/M4/M4gery is that it gets people killed on the two way range.

Agreed that some AKs aren't that accurate, but for real world purposes at typical combat ranges, <2MOA is perfectly suitable and most AKs can accomplish that. Reliability is numero uno. If you need accuracy superior to that I'm guessing you're engaging targets at great ranges - might as well use a M1A or FAL, but for serious shoot and scoot the AK rules (especially if one has upgraded the sighting on it).

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

McCrystal is another clueless fu*k intent on "achieving victory." He wants 40,000 more fresh pieces of meat...uh, I mean fresh troops to "win."

The point is simple: it is IMPOSSIBLE to conquer Afghanistan. Admit a failed policy of aggressive war, and LEAVE. Even if the war on Afghanistan were truly a vital national interest and we sent 400,000 more troops, we would still not achieve victory. It is definitely not a vital national interest...unless the interests of petroleum countries are "vital national interests." If so, they can pay for it exclusively, and find the voluntary suckers to fight the war.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

How about we just carpet bomb the entire country with nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons? Those towelhead bastards don't deserve to live! How dare they shoot back at the invaders...uh..."liberators" of the country. :sarc:


We must admit a failed policy of aggressive war, and LEAVE.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Performance is what counts.

The F-22 earned its derisive nickname, Craptor.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

there hasn't been a report as to what the malfunction was... so what is the argument over?

bad ammo/casing will jam an AK at the same speed as an AR.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I have my reasons for preferring 5.56mm/the AR platform, but, let's be reasonable, and stop making excuses for this situation. The firearms are the problem, nothing else. They are being pushed beyond their abilities. That doesn't make them "bad," any more than the fact US troops are being pushed beyond their abilities makes them "bad."

The AR/M-16/M-4 platform is just fine for what is supposed to do: DEFEND THE AMERICAN HOMELAND. But these wars are not about that, eh?

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Hey man, poppies are of keen interest to the company, and their activities certainly qualify as 'national security'. lol

Poppy growers deserve security too ya know.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...fghan2_600.JPG

http://www.armybase.us/wp-content/up...h-province.jpg

http://peacerebelgirl.files.wordpres...pium-field.jpg

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

The two AK's that I previously owned would not shoot anywhere near 2MOA more like 5 or 6 MOA and one was a pre-ban Norinco. I would like to try a custom accurized AK, but I would imagine that the accurizing would probably affect the reliability. Anybody here know who builds the most accurate AK? Or a custom shop for AK's?

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Consistent sub 4 MOA out of a standard AK would be "Match Grade" in my book. Maybe a heavier barrel and tighter chamber tolerances...oh and a solid mount and scope. Maybe a VEPR. You want a custom AK? Krebs comes to mind http://www.krebscustom.com/index.shtml

Actually, now that I think of it, good ammunition would go a long way. If you can get your hands on some Chinese mil surp steel-core you might be real surprised with 2.5-3.0 MOA...I was, with a Norinco post-ban MAK-90. The longer steel bullet stabilized very well.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Arguing planes sounds pretty interchangable with arguing AK vs AR.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I never really concern myself with MOA with an AK. When the kids are "qualifying", as long as the majority of rounds are in the 7 ring with 4 or 5 fliers out of 60 at 100m we're having pizza on the way home.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

My Arsenal SLR95 is about the same. And I always thought it was odd, since the SLR's have a good reputation, being milled and not stamped.

Accuracy by volume is the motto with that gun.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

It doesn't matter.
in the time it took to burn through that ammo, a one handed Paki kid in a garage shop churned out 5 more new ones...
:wink:

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I say let them churn out pieces of junk that glitter for airshows.
Tie up their war production machine by building these expensive obsolete aircraft.
Dogfighting aircraft are obsolete.
Shoulder fired missiles can take them out at a fraction of the cost.
The US is finally letting the cat out of the bag where fighter jets stand.
Drones are cheaper and more deadly than what the russians are currently putting out for aircraft.
Granted if a drone was ever in the sights of any fighterjet its toast, but I highly doubt any russian fighter jet will ever get that close to a drone equiped with anti-aircraft missiles.
Prime example is the the C130 puff the magic dragon in the Vietnam era proved its worth for ground support.
Drones are just as deadly to the enemy. Small and hard to hear. May not carry a howitzer but deadly just the same.
Stratigically, stealthy missile developement is the key to winning any air battle and a drone can deliver.
I sure wouldnt want to be the russian pilot who gets taken down by a computer geek in Utah piloting the drone with a joystick.

The russian millitary has nothing in comparison to the US's world wide electronic infrustructer. They have to rely on outdated aircraft and the pilots to fly them.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

As far as the range goes, the AK is OK but I love the AR platform. As far as home defense goes, I'd give the edge to the AR with a red dot type scope. I'm shooting with my weak eye and need a red dot scope to do well. But that's just me. If the AK works for you, that's great. What ever works best for you....

I've also discovered that steel cased Brown Bear works very well in my rifle. Not one hiccup.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

5.45x39 is what the russians are using now and it shoots right with an AR at distance. I have a fixed stock AK74, a side folder AK74 and a Tantal, all used parts "kit guns". They all have 16" barrels and shoot right with my brand new 16" AR, with Wilson 1-8 twist heavy barrel, in 5.56 using cheap steel cased ammo. The tantal shoots a little tighter than the AR.

Plenty of case taper on 5.45x39 as well. Superior penetration & ballistics to 5.56, the steel core will pierce a 1" steel plate at 100 yards(thanks to Argent dragon for that video, amazing). This caliber was designed to fight our troops wearing body armor.

The AR has better sights, is fairly accurate right out the box, the lower reciever design is nice - easy to use, and is easier to modify, that's about the only positives. I would love to get a piston upper, but for the $1000-$1200 I could get an entire FAL or something else cool. The new piston driven Ruger 556 or something similiar should be adopted by our military IMHO.

As many of you guys know the AR platform is a bitch to clean properly. I suspect that contributed to the problem in OP's link. A little bit of sand, add in some heat and a dirty gas tube, the thing isn't going to cycle.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I'm just going to end the argument right here. :tongue_ma:

If you like .223, get an AK in .223. The Saiga .223 is capable of nearly the same accuracy as an AR, there's a guy over at saiga-12.com who's posted a .116" group @ 100 yds with handloads, and I doubt a match AR can get too much better than that.

Believe it or not, much of the AK's reputation of poor accuracy is due to the ammo/round, not the action itself.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

mtnman,

No doubt my skills with iron sights need improvement, but with middle-aged eyes, I am in increasing need of the handicap of a scope or sighting device. My experience in the field is that irons sights "melt away" into the background at dusk, or just before dawn or in heavy dark cover. With my Eotech holographic sight or my Leupold 3-9x I can gain a few more minutes of shooting time and have more confidence in placing the shot where I want it to be. I shoot 90% of my game in the head, so shot placement is critical, and given my inadequate iron sight shooting skills, a scope or EoTech is a must. All my guns are equipped with flip-up iron sights in case the sighting device fails. Is your 2MOA AK a stock gun? Any custom work?

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Showing my age, I have never fired a SAW, but I humped an M-60 for a few years and greatly appreciated it.

I totally comprehend the ammo bearing necessity to switch from .308 to 5.56, especially dismounted, so I can see the need for a change to the m249.

As for the OP:

I have been in close enough proximity to the high-level BS to know that .gov and their beloved contractors will market the need for new weapons systems at the "expense" of well-publicized troop deaths.

Would the presence of the FN-SCAR, M14 or heavy-barrel, piston ARs really have changed the outcome? Given the defensive location and circumstances, I seriously doubt it.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I had a Chinese SKS that shot 4" groups at 50 yards with iron sights -- it wasn't me. I can hit 1" round target patch at 200 yards with my V-Match scoped AR. We had a night shoot at an old refrigerator, 15 guys unloaded. I put through 3 30 rounds mags as fast as I could pull the trigger and reload with a shorty AR, no problems. Don't get me wrong, I would like you AK guys at my side, but to take out a single target at a distance -- let me do it with the AR...

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Here's my beast. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

http://www.mg-42.net/images/MG42/mg42_1.jpg

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Hold on...we're not talking about hunting game. For game I recommend a bolt action with a good scope. My favorite for that is my Siam Mauser chambered for the 45/70 round with a 12x Redfield scope. I load 49 grains of IMR4198 with a 300 grain bullet. This gives me about 2200 fps. It knocks deer DOWN.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...9/MVC-205S.jpg
My Ak (shtf for shooting zombies) is a bone stock pre-ban Clayco Sports under folder made in the Min Shan factory in China (pre-Norinco). It's a quality firearm, built with the same machinery, same parts and by the same workers as the full auto Chinese military rifle (they just left out the sear).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...n37879/AK1.jpg

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Great to find another 45/70 fan here. I shoot a Browning 1885 Highwall in 45/70 loaded with 350 gr Hornady FP and 48.4 grains of Reloader #7 and like you said it is like hitting deer between the eyes with a sledge hammer. I call my 45/70 "Ole Painless". As for zombies vs game: Game is relatively stupid yet they still move mostly in the twilight hours and rather stealthfully. What makes you think Zombies will not move even more strategically and require even more precise shooting than game would. I will take my AR for game and zombies, but I would not mind having your pictured AK slung over my back for a back-up rifle if (you would say when) my AR jams. How many rounds does that bolt action 45/70 hold? Magazine fed? Fixed or detachable?

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Precision is for snipers and shooting sports, not for up close defense. Zombies shoot back and hide behind cover, two things that game don't do. If you hit game it either drops or runs, zombies can keep shooting at you. If your weapon stops cycling it's advantage zombie. If your weapon can't do damage through cover it's advantage zombie. I understand it's reassuring to print groups that can be covered with a quarter because target practice is all most people get but that has nothing to do with fighting. Even if you could hold groups that tight while fighting it wouldn't be as good as the same number of hits spread out over a wider area of the target. Not to mention that in real life in most terrain you will rarely even get a chance to identify an enemy at a distance greater than 100 yards. Reliability will always be #1, ask Jessica Lynch. Even if you're just making noise it'll keep the zombie's head down. If your rifle goes silent he's going to eat your brains.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I like my AK, my SKS is more accurate and I like it as well, but if I'm compelled to take shots at blue helmets at 100+ yards, I'll be using my Swiss K-31.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

If things get bad enough and shtf, it only takes a few minutes and a drill press to change my AK to full fun, and then it's like someone else on this thread said "accuracy through volume"!
My Siam Mauser holds 4 rounds and it has a fixed magazine. It's a tack driver and it will blow a hole clean through a 12� oak tree at 75 yards, Fun rifle!
Here�s another of my 45/70�s, Marlin 1895SS in 45/70. I only run the Hornady Leverevolution ammo in it. I like the soft tip ammo in a tube magazine and my hot loads are WAY too hot for anything except the Mauser and maybe a Ruger #1. There�s not many that appreciate the knock down power of the 45/70.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...9/MVC-208S.jpg

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

I had and loved a Marlin 45-70 guide gun. Unfortunately I sold it to fund some other weapons projects. I miss that gun. Until I sold all of my guns last year I was running with two M-14s (posted a pic on an earlier thread). One was in a Sage Mod-1 stock and the other was in a modified GI stock. Both are.....I mean WERE built on LRB receivers with 100% USGI parts. Accurate, hard hitting and ultra reliable. I sure do miss those rifles also.:wink:Bx3

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

full fun. ahahahahahahaaa thats great.

Re: Like your AR? hmmmm....
 

Exactly. Different jobs different tools.